Digital Sound FAQ

[what's your choice of laptop/notebook brand?]

what's your choice of laptop/notebook brand?
Neo
	3 (5%)
Acer
	9 (17%)
Mac
	5 (9%)
Fujitsu
	6 (11%)
Dell
	7 (13%)
HP
	7 (13%)
MSI
	1 (1%)
Asus
	5 (9%)
Sony
	5 (9%)
Others
	4 (7%)
Total Voters: 52

[darkangel]

Thank you so much bro mikeer.

I'm actually getting a new pair of floorstanding speakers (Im still engrossed with the Infinity Beta 50) with a new stereo receiver (Im thinking either Rotel or NAD this time) and when that time comes, the speakers I now have (Acoustic Energy Evo 1) and the stereo reciever (Harman/Kardon HK3470) will be dedicated for PC audio (2.0 setup as usual) - Requiring a HUGE desk or probably a larger than normal desk to accomodate the speakers beside the LCD panel, and probably the receiver will have to be below the desk somewhere.

What amplifier will you be using in this setup bro, if there's any?

But between the pricing of the Klipsch and Bose, the pricing of Klipsch is more believeable and reasonable because the speaker components have more expensive materials, and not just excellent design / engineering  (unlike Bose that have mediocre materials, excellent design)

Thanks for pointing that out.

I was able to hear the difference between the ADA 305s and the HK3470+AE Evo1 combination and believe me, It felt hard for me to disconnect the speakers and receiver when I listened to the MP3s on the PC, had I not been pulled back to reality that the speakers and receiver for now belonged to the living room until the replacements come in.

I'm dying to try that out too!!

For subs/bass speakers, Klipsch uses ceramic over metal cones (Same material used on my AE-Evo1 and on the Infinity Beta/Kappa Series) instead of Bose's plastic over paper cones (same material used by Dai-Ichi=our local speaker manufacturer for their speaker cones), Tweeters of Klipsch are compression horns made of Titanium (expensive to fabricate and form into domes,and the only other player that have titanium dome tweeters in speakers is JBL), Bose only uses paper/aluminum cones)

hehehheh, i'm still at lost at the materials used. didn't know that they could use titanium, thought that this is only used on spaceships.

By the way, dont get me wrong, the Dai-Ichi may be our local version of a speaker manufacturer but they sound great for the price you pay for (real bang for the buck) - you may want to check them out at the 5th level of Megamall (Bldg B if im not mistaken near the car park) - I think they have PC speaker offerings now (how I wish they've done it a LOT earlier)

Just did a little googling and i found this site: http://www.daiichi.ph/
Is this the company you were talking bro?
they have a multimedia speakers also listed in their products.  thank you so much for pointing this out bro. In reallity i'm still at lost on this audiophile business. I need to read, gather experiences and recommendation, just like you did, and experiment around. Im still overwhelmed by the new brand names i come to met.

[mikeer2002ph]

"What amplifier will you be using in this setup bro, if there's any?" (Darkangel, 2009)


Well for the AE Evo1s on my PC, ill be using the Harman/Kardon HK3470 Stereo Receiver



Oh I forgot these in the first part of our show:

Stereo = 2 channel sound (left channel + right channel)

Power Amp = Drives the Speakers

Pre Amp = Amplifies very small signals coming from CD players / MP3 players (or iPods/MP3 Phones) / Phono Players / TV so the signals arent too weak to be driven by the power amp

Power Amp + Pre Amp = Integrated Amp (you need 2 of these for stereo)

Stereo Integrated Amp + AM/FM Tuner  = Stereo Receiver


"hehehheh, i'm still at lost at the materials used. didn't know that they could use titanium, thought that this is only used on spaceships." (Darkangel, 2009)

Well, the materials used in speakers are the following:


for cone speakers:

Cellulose (Paper/ Paper Pulp) = used on normal speakers (cheap to middle range main speakers, cheap subwoofers, speakers since the time it was invented)

PolyPolypropylene over Cellulose sandwhich (Paper laminated in Plastic) = usually used in middle range subwoofers, some high end main speakers from the 1970s-1980s (Infinity, AR, Wharfedale)

Mica over Cellulose sandwich (Paper laminated in Mica) = usually used in middle to high end main speakers of the 1970s-1980s (Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer,Sansui)

Mica over PolyMethylPentine (Plastic laminated in Mica) = used in middle to high end speakers of Yamaha (1990-2000s)

PolyPropylene (Plastic) = used in middle to high end speakers of Infinity (1980s-1990s) / high-end car subwoofers of Pioneer, Sony (1990s-2000s)

Kevlar (Aramid Fibre) = aside from bulletproof vests, it also is used in high-end speakers from B&W, Wharfedale (1990s-2000)

Fibre Glass (Glass Fibre) = aside from its usual use in fiber optics in telecommunication, its also used in high-end speakers from Mission, Sonus Faber, Tannoy (1990s-2000)

Anodized Aluminum = aside from aircraft and aerospace use, its also used in speakers (high-end subwoofers from B&W, Klipsch, new models of speakers from various brands)

Alumina over Aluminum (Aluminum laminated in Ceramics) = aside from aircraft and aerospace use, its also used in speakers (high-end speakers from Infinity, Acoustic Energy, klipsch)


for Dome Speakers: (tweeters mostly, some on midrange - notably from wharfedale )

PolyPropylene (plastic) - the most common material used for dome tweeters on cheap to midrange speaker systems,cheapest to manufacture and provides average high frequency response

Silk - the next most common material used for dome tweeters (usually the soft dome type) that is integrated on midrange to high end speakers like Acoustic Energy, Wharfedales, Onkyo. Has that 'warm' and soft high frequency slope that only silk can provide, unlike metal tweeters that has an 'in your face' high frequency slope (aluminum,titanium,beryllium)

Mylar (plastic) - usually used in dome tweeters or compression horn tweeters from daiichi and on some domes from KEF (1980s-1990s)

Aluminum - aside from aerospace and commercial use, its also used in dome tweeters usually from B&W and paradigm. B&W solved the problem of the 'in your face' high frequency slope by integrating the aluminum dome tweeter into a nautillus cavity (think of a nautillus cavity as a waffle cone for ice cream and the heap of ice cream on top is the actual dome protruding on the speaker enclosure - very effective but the use of the cavity and its integration in the enclosure presents additional cost and further engineering), the cavity is filled with sand and acoustic fibre to dampen and remove unwanted stray harmonics.

Titanium - aside from aerospace and commercial use in dental inlays / prosthetics, titanium is still used in high-end speakers of JBL, very tight and very linear high frequency response but seems to be too harsh for most people but rock stars love it to bits

Beryllium - aside from aerospace and nuclear sciences, this metal was once used in tweeters. Its very nice sounding and has very high frequency response, but because its expensive to manufacture and is considered a carcinogen, its use as speakers have been short lived (yamaha and sansui had beryllium dome tweeters way back 1980s-1990s but was exchanged for titanium / aluminum domes for cost and health reasons) but is in between the frequency response of silk and titanium, soft yet very linear and tight

Ceramic over aluminum - patented by infinity, this dome tweeter has the inherent high frequency slope of silk with the tightness of titanium with the response of beryllium but is the second most expensive to manufacture because unlike cones that have a uniform shape, the dome needs to be very thin at the side where it contacts the voice coil and rubber surround, but it gradually thickens as it reaches the top of the dome in order to counter the effects of harmonics at the high frequency range (no problems with subs / midrange since the sonic frequency is below threshold of high frequency)


To answer the daiichi speakers, yes its at daiichi.ph but the website is not that updated unlike their offerings in megamall which is more current (give the filipino company a break! - they're not so used to peddling online yet, besides, daiichi showroom is best to be visited on your free time, so you can appreciate the speakers that seem to cost a fortune but are actually cheap to use everyday and buy in an impulse and you wont regret the purchase)

sources from wikipedia.org, mission.co.uk, acoustic-energy.co.uk, wharfedale.co.uk, paragdigm.com, infinitysystems.com, yamaha.com, jbl.com, acoustic-research.com, creative.com, cambridgesoundworks.com, daiichi.ph

[darkangel]

Bro, thanks for the breakdown of the materials used on speakers. that's so helpful!

right now im still surveying and reading a lot of info about these pc speaker systems. I've come across this new 2.1 setup from creative. Seems it has raised a lot of eyebrows from audiophiles and review sites. Its the Creative Gigaworks T3.


On here, http://vr-zone.com/articles/creative-announces-gigaworks-t3-speaker-system/6210.html?doc=6210 , it seems to be pitted against the bose companion 5 (or 3) as set B, although they didn't mention it. And it seems to out perform it.

I don't know though if this is available here now and what might be its retail price.

if you could stumble on this sometime soon, please let us know about what  you might think.

other links:

http://asia.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=4&subcategory=789&product=18043&WT.cg_n=Campaigns&WT.mc_id=18249

http://www.trustedreviews.com/multimedia/review/2008/10/28/Creative-GigaWorks-T3-2-1-Channel-Speakers/p1

http://vr-zone.com/articles/creative-gigaworks-t3-review/6251-1.html?doc=6251

All for the best!!

[mikeer2002ph]

I havent seen that speaker in action yet but considering creative contracted cambridge soundworks for its whole speaker line,(founded by the founder of AR-a renowned speaker manufacturer in the 1960s-1980s) I wont be surprised that it has an audiophile pedigree that is both sonically correct and cheap so it can be used either as a standalone computer speaker or as a budget audiophile setup in very cramped spaces (think citiland studio units where I once heard a creative-cambridge soundworks 2.1 setup and it is glorious in this tight spot, but its lousy on other places (if you have a large den / computer room) because the speakers uses the acoustics of the small space as sonc reinforcement)

[darkangel]

Digital Sound FAQ

bro mikeer2002ph,

Thanks for the background check.

got this from here:

Class leading performance

When we got the T3's into our own testing room, we reproduced this test and discovered identical results. We also tested them against the Aego M 2.1 speakers from Acoustic Energy. A 90W system which we gave 4.5 stars last year.

AE is a full-blown Hi-Fi company, so we weren't expecting the T3's to beat the Aego M's, but as it turns out, the T3's won hands-down. We even kidnapped a number of people from our sister magazines and asked them to do a blind (deaf?) test. The T3's were the overwhelming favourites.

And that's because the smooth, bassy audio that comes from these speakers literally drips with clarity.

Crisp highs and deep lows are reproduced with such accuracy we almost couldn't believe our ears. This is just a £160 set of PC speakers remember.

One of the secret weapons in the T3's arsenal is the Creative SLAM subwoofer (it stands for Symmetrically Loaded Acoustic Module) which uses three separate 6.5-inch drivers to combine precision and accuracy with deep bass.

Top notch components

The two satellites are no slouches either. Symbols and acoustic guitar are reproduced with impressive lucidity, and backed up by creamy bass from the SLAM sub.

I'm keeping my eye on these set when it will be available here. If you happen to see this, please let me know.

On eBay it is posted around 8.9k t0 9.2k php. but will be shipped from Singapore with an additional 100$ frieght expense.

I think it won't be long before these will be available here.

[dhiching03]

Mukang ok nga yan..san ba makakabili niyan sa net bossing..

[mikeer2002ph]

"I'm keeping my eye on these set when it will be available here. If you happen to see this, please let me know.

On eBay it is posted around 8.9k t0 9.2k php. but will be shipped from Singapore with an additional 100$ frieght expense.

I think it won't be long before these will be available here." - (Darkangel, 2009)


If it beats AE's AegoM, then it SHOULD be worth my time for audition.

The price is dirt cheap at that performance level (if we are to believe the editors and the reviewers ala christ's disciples) and the quoted price in PhP from eBay.

The AegoM is as expensive as the Bose companion, or even a bit more but because again, it uses the same ceramic-aluminum satellite drivers and subs as its bigger brethren - the AE evo and reference series.

The editor is right that the AegoM has a strong audiophile pedigree. Im expecting the AegoM to get 4.5/5 stars from them considering I gave them 5/5 personally when I heard it.

I dont mind paying 20K for it (Aego M is sold here through AE's distributor who used to be the same distributor of harman/kardon,infinity,JBL in manila - beyond innovations) because of the design and materials used as well as their generous 5 year warranty

BUT again, if everything is true and this unit can be had in as little as 8-9K and shoots down the AegoM.. then this is the first time I may be giving a PC speaker worthy of a mind boggling 6 or even 7 over 5 stars just by making a sonic statement that PC speakers and audiophile quality are now in bed together under one roof.

AND finally I guess that is the time to retire my O-L-D and reliable Altec Lansing ADA305s (which probably will end up with the iRiver IHP140/340 in my bedroom) and say hello to Creative (thanks to Cambridge Soundworks) T3


NOTE: I will not dare or even think of crossing the line by comparing it to real audiophile speakers (on my AE-Evo1 + H/K 3470 Receiver combo) because again, its like comparing apples and oranges, it just doesnt work that way.

There is a lot of truth to the segue of the editor of not comparing the T3 to KEF speakers (which is WAY WAY beyond the sonic performance even of my AE Evo1 by the way) coupled to the Naim AMP (hey give me a break! Naim amps costs a fortune here in manila (40K just for the amp, and you still need a preamp which is another 15K) , the H/K 3470 receiver was least of the devils (got it for 15K way back 2002)

sources: naim-audio.com, kef.com, harman-kardon.com, acoustic-energy.co.uk

[darkangel]

Bro mikeer2002ph,

i have found one supplier here in ph for the t3. his items could be viewed here. there are 3 units left, priced at 12Kph excluding freight. how i wish i could audition them before deciding to buy.

Also may i ask what might be a good sound card? i'm setting my eyes on Creative SB Audigy Value. this is just for listening music and games on a 2.1 set-up. Any alternative recommendation is welcome.

your advice is greatly appreciated bro.

all for the best.

[mikeer2002ph]

Bro mikeer2002ph,

I have found one supplier here in ph for the t3. his items could be viewed here. there are 3 units left, priced at 12Kph excluding freight. how i wish i could audition them before deciding to buy.

Also may I ask what might be a good sound card? i'm setting my eyes on Creative SB Audigy Value. this is just for listening music and games on a 2.1 set-up. Any alternative recommendation is welcome.

your advice is greatly appreciated bro.

all for the best.

Creative speakers and sound cards used to be distributed by Lamco here in Manila. Lamco's website is www.lamco.com.ph but I believe creative dropped them out of the distributorship and creative went direct to the resellers like abenson / avant / electroworld (they're sister companies) as well as SM appliance, premium PC resellers like those found in gilmore and greenhills

I'll try to check if my supplier e-home can get one (and im sure its not 12K excluding freight)

Creative audigy value is ok for a high end but bang for the buck soundcard (around 2-3K I think) it uses the same DSP albeit on a slower speed as compared to its higher end brothers - the platinum and fatality

If you want to spend a bit more (3-4K) then you might want to go for PCI Express X-Fi Xtreme Audio (PCI-Express X1 card) it has better connectivity (via optical in/out) not found in the creative audigy value, plus the DSP's higher speed and faster bandwidth (because of the PCI-E X1 interface) makes up for better sound.

[darkangel]

I'll try to check if my supplier e-home can get one (and im sure its not 12K excluding freight)

cool!! will wait till you could put your discerning ear on this piece. I've already communicated with the seller and that's what he priced me. if its better than the Bose (at 18k) then i might get this.

If you want to spend a bit more (3-4K) then you might want to go for PCI Express X-Fi Xtreme Audio (PCI-Express X1 card) it has better connectivity (via optical in/out) not found in the creative audigy value, plus the DSP's higher speed and faster bandwidth (because of the PCI-E X1 interface) makes up for better sound

thanks for bringing that out bro! advice acknowledged. 

Hardwarezone forums have people  discussing about T3, altec,  Ageo-M, and bose pc speakers. quite enlightening.

[mikeer2002ph]

No problem Darkangel! 

[mikeer2002ph]

update:

most motherboards now have SPD/IF (digital out) right on the motherboard (routed from the HD Audio Codec chip) and all you need is the appropriate wire (either an SPDIF to HDMI pass through cable connected on the nvidia/ATI video card) or you can just create your own SPDIF to RCA digital out hookup interface (all you need to remember is that the ground is the outer shell, and the signal is the inner core)

[mikeer2002ph]

As an independent computer hardware vendor and as an audiophile, I've come up with a ranking on how different audio codecs sound when connected to reference headphones (my headphones - Sennheiser HD280Pro) and on my old clunky Altec-Lansing ADA305 as reference speakers

Of course, with each motherboard, onboard motherboard audio differs significantly. If you trully have an ear for the best, but want to settle for a budget mobo, there's no way but offboard (add-in card) audio which offers better choices for your sound cravings.

Also, take into consideration that your listening equipment (headphones/speakers) also play a part. to be as objective as possible use only 1 point of reference (1 headphone and/or 1 speaker system)

Parameters - Only latest codec drivers are loaded (motherboard / add-in card), 75% main volume, 100% wav volume, on a core2duo E8500,4GB memory, on windows XP SP3,1.5TB Seagate 7200.11 HDD in AHCI, all sound processing features disabled, other sources are muted and volume on those sources set to 0%.

Musical content: I've listened to all these tracks per motherboard/add-in card using custom ripped WAV files from original CDs - 1812 Overture (Tchaikovsky) , Besame mucho (Dianna Krall) , Empires (Chicane) , I've got you under my skin (Frank Sinatra Live from Tel Aviv 1958), I will love again-thunderpuss remix (Lara Fabian), 9PM -Till I come (ATB), Nessun dorma (Luciano Pavarotti), Smack that (Akon), Visions of a sunset (Shawn Stockman), Right here waiting (Monica and 112), The nearness of you (Norah Jones), Pie Jesu (Charlotte Church), Someday (Nina), Water fountain (David Foster), Survivor (Bella Thomas), Time to say goodbye (Sarah Brightman)

- Rankings based on sound quality from front channels only (L and R)

For onboard (motherboard audio)

1. Creative X-Fi (usually found on high end Asus ROG motherboards)
2. Sigmatel/IDT STAC series (usually found on upper class motherboards from intel/asus/msi/gigabyte)
3. Analog Devices ADI SoundMax series (usually found on middle class motherboards from intel/asus/gigabyte)
4. Realtek HD series (usually found on generic/ budget motherboards/low end intel/asus/MSI/gigabyte/ECS)

for add-in (offboard/internal card type audio)
1. Auzen (ironically uses creative's X-Fi DSP but Auzen tweaked it to strict audiophile/studio standards)
2. Creative X-Fi series
3. Creative Audigy series
4. Turtlebeach Montego Series
5. Creative SoundBlaster Live Series
6. Yamaha sound cards
7. Generic (realtek) sound cards

I did not bother with SPDIF outputs since with SPDIF, you can actually use an offboard DAC/Codec combo to decode the digital bitstream
but for FYI

DAC's that are audiophile worthy
1. Burr-Brown (now part of Texas Instruments)
2. Wolfson
3. Crystal (Cirrus Logic)

[dhiching03]

Mga luho niyo napapagaya ako..

what can you say about T3 vs. Logitech Z2300 is their a big difference for the Z2300 because of its THX.

About the Onkyo HT-S3200, puwede ba toh sa PC?

[mikeer2002ph]

if you want sonic fidelity, there's no denying its The creative gigaworks T3.

why?

Gigaworks T3 is the culmination of Cambridge Soundworks and Creative Technologies, and has evolved from the humble creative soundworks partnership from way back when creative started to market their own speaker line in the late 1990s that shook the speaker/audiophile/computer industry because it was audiophile quality (expensive) at computer speaker (cheap) prices

case point .. cambridge soundworks is an english audiophile company that churns out budget audiophile speakers (read:not your usual raon/computer speakers from computer brands) - the speakers themselves compete with high end marques like bang and olufsen/bowers and wilkins/acoustic energy/boston acoustics/bose/polk/wharfedales at the mini/micro speaker levels) and for creative .. we all know they're original sound card maker (sound blaster) and makers of the high end sound cards audigy/X-Fi we all desire.

they're meant to be partnered together (soundcard and sound system) although its also possible to get great sounding speakers just from gigaworks

i've personally listened to it, its like ALMOST getting yourself a budget separate system (read: performs like a combination of a budget audiophile speaker (pair of bookshelves and a sub) set, a budget power amp and the trouble of setting it up for the pc) except its really meant for the computer

price of the Gigaworks T3 = 8-9k

dont be fooled by the price - its steep for a computer speaker but think of the nearest alternative: an audiophile quality separates system

lets put it in perspective

cheapest audiophile quality speaker = 16K a pair (bookshelf size)
cheapest audiophile quality stereo amp = 16K
cheapest audiophile quality subwoofer = 11K
cabling = 500

so thats 43.5k if you want the cheapest audiophile quality separates system with a comparable sonic performance to the T3

of course there are other budget 2.1 sets there that are a lot cheaper than the T3 (edifer is one of them) but they dont have that acoustic oomph required to deliver spirited musical quality required of audiophile speakers.


on the other hand .. the Logitech Z2300 is THX select certified

actually the logitech Z2300 is powerful no doubt (I tested it watching iron man at my supplier's showroom in annapolis greenhills supposedly 'just for 5 minutes', but i ended up watching the whole movie - it was that engaging)

but when strapped to a musical source (my clunky iRiver iHP 340) .. well .. i got disappointed

my torture test for both speakers (its subjective but thats how i hear things)
conditions
1. speakers are flat (no tweaks on the equalizer)
2. orientation is flat (no toe in)

(toe-in: you orient the 2 satellite speakers so that the speakers fire directly at your ear - about 5 to 10 degrees = think toe-in like wheels of a car when its unbalanced - same principle)

3. sitting at ear level with the satellite speaker 3-4  feet away from the speaker
4. speakers are 4-5 feet away

1. the 1812 (Tchaikovsky) - a difficult piece to render on speakers because of its dynamism (cohesion of the subs and satellites)
T3 = pass , Z2300 = Fail (requires toe-in AND equalizer tweaks)

2. angel (Sarah McLachlan) - sarah's voice is supposed to 'appear' on the space between you and the speaker at the center
T3 = pass , Z2300 = fail (requires toe-in)

3. Ave Maria (Maria Callas) - Opera music by one of the best opera singers, another audiophile test source (tests fidelity of the satellites)
T3 = pass, Z2300 = fail (requires toe-in)

4. Dont know why (Norah Jones) - acoustic / jazzy tune by norah jones (cohesion between subs and satellite for Jazz music)
T3 = pass, Z2300 = fail (requires toe-in)

5. I will love again (Lara Fabian) Thunderpuss mix - house music supposed to test the subs bass depth and spatial performance of the satellites
T3 = Pass, Z2300 = pass

6. Right here waiting (Monica and 112) - Richard Marx's love ballad in R&B form (more on subs bass, a bit on the satellites)
T3 = Pass, Z2300 = pass

7. Spice up your life (spice girls) - another test for spatial performance from the satellites and a bit from the subs depth
T3 = Pass, Z2300 = pass

8. Various movies (rendered on 2.1 instead of 5.1/7.1)
T3 = Pass, Z2300 = pass

9. various rock music
T3 = Pass, Z2300 = pass


if you're not into classical / instrumental and 'oldies' type of music and more into gaming and movies.. then Z2300 is definitely for you

if you want a speaker set that can render classical / instrumentals and voices with clarity approaching that of a separate system = Z3


the Onkyo HT-S3200 is an audiophile quality HTiB (Home Theatre in a Box) I've also heard it from my supplier (e-home trading at their showroom)

although not as complex (and expensive) as its true A/V receiver line (the TX-SR series of AV receivers), the receiver with the HT-S3200 built with the same care as its expensive siblings.

I was also a proud owner of an Onkyo TX-SR700 (old model from the early 2000) which i gave to my parents as my graduation gift - its glorious with movies and music alike if paired with capable speakers (they have a Bose acoustimass 5 front left/right/subs, V100 satellites (centre and surround back) and the meaty cerwin vega AT-6 as surround left/right at home)

the speakers that come with the Onkyo system are also capable (it looks flimsy or cheap at first but you'll get the hang of it), together with the sub (i guess they were designed to work together and if you replace the speakers with something else then you destroy the cohesion) although of course .. you have the choice of replacing the speakers if you so wish